welcome back to another episode of the couples healing podcasts i’m happy to be here today because we’re going to talk about something very important because it’s a common situation that many people get stuck in she will wonder how do i know that he’s telling the truth how do you navigate that situation when he says that he is she says i don’t know if i can believe you is there a way to tell if he’s telling the truth how do you what kind of questions can you ask to move forward in a productive way so both of you feel understood and as always these episodes are for both him and her because it’s so important that we speak to both sides so each of you can understand both sides and know how to move forward because in this episode in particular there are a lot of times that men are telling the truth and they really legitimately are telling the truth but she still has a hard time believing that so he’s going to wonder what can he do as well how can he help her to be able to bridge this gap and so we’re going to talk about these things in this episode today so many couples are looking for a path forward after there has been damage done by pornography addiction after working with hundreds of couples as a therapist i want you to know that there is hope for you hope for your relationship to become stronger to rebuild the trust and the connection and to rid the addiction from your lives permanently and in this podcast i’ll be sharing with you the tools and the strategies that you need to heal both individually and in your relationship my name is sam Tielemans and welcome to the couples healing podcast okay today again we’re going to talk all about what do you do in these situations when she says what if i don’t believe what he’s saying i was working with a client just recently and this is the this is what inspired this episode she’s like what if i don’t believe what he’s saying what if i’m having a hard time taking in the fact that he’s saying that it’s true he’s telling me the truth or he really is working on things this time how do i how do i navigate this and i think this is a situation that so many women and men both get stuck in because a lot of the guys that i work with as they’re doing their work and they’re really committed to the process they tell their wife honey i’m telling you the truth x y z happened or x y z didn’t happen or whatever situation they’re trying to discuss they’re saying i’m telling you the truth but the wife can have a hard time believing that sometimes and i totally understand why and i i hope that as we talked about in this episode today both people can come to a greater understanding of what to do in these moments because so often there’s a stalemate and it’s yes yes i’m telling truth no you’re not yes i am well how can i believe you i’ve heard this before so this again this episode was inspired by this couple that i was working with where he started to do some excellent work after just a few sessions because he was starting to understand why he would turn away from her why he would slip back into old patterns he would start to understand the core of the addiction for him was his need to avoid pain because of how bad it’s like it was his shame it’s a lot of the stuff we’ve been talking about over these episodes his shame of not being a good person his shame of hurting his wife the pain that he’s caused her leads him to shut down put a wall up and avoid and then eventually the pain becomes so great he doesn’t know how to manage the emotions that he then turns to something to distract them which then causes her more damage so it’s just the cycle continues but after they started working with me he had been doing some like fantastic work i was so proud of the exchanges that they were having the communication they were learning new skills and tools and implementing them very quickly so it’s very it’s like such a cool thing to see when people are able to make these changes in a short amount of time and so as a result she says well how do i know that this is real this time and i think that’s a fair question and i think it’s understandable for her to wonder and what she went on to say was for so long we’ve gone through these spells of we felt good for a little bit and then everything came crashing down again and then i got my hopes up because we started to make progress again together and then i found out that there’s something else is going on or there was another slip that there was a lot of she calls them false starts or it’s all these false starts however how can i know if we’re actually getting off the ground this time i think that’s such a good question and so number one what i would say to her and as he listens this is important that he understands this as well wherever she is in the process it’s perfectly okay for her to feel however she feels and she doesn’t have any trust and doesn’t believe anything that he says it’s okay for her to be there we can’t pressure her we can’t make her believe certain things even if it’s true we can’t make her believe it and so she feels suspicion or if there’s a wall up and she says this might be another false start i’m afraid to give mice i’m afraid to open up and really try to be vulnerable again because i don’t want to get hurt it’s so important that she understands and that he hears this as well it’s 100 percent okay for her to be there and it’s very normal and i think if the shoe was on the other foot he again this is where it’s so hard because sometimes the men haven’t had the experience of what she’s going through so it’s just kind of like an intellectual understanding of like okay i get this as hard but they don’t understand the depth of it because i just haven’t been through it if the shoe was on the other foot he would feel the same way and so i think having a degree of compassion and understanding that it’s such a risk for her to bring her wall down and try to put herself out there and be open and be vulnerable and start to trust again and then find out that either something was happening or she truly does open up and lets him in and gives it another shot and then an old pattern shows up they get derailed and then she gets hurt again it’s a very scary place for it to be so i think number one speaking to her it’s important that you know it’s absolutely okay for you to be wherever you are in the process there’s nothing wrong there’s no wrong all we do is start wherever we are the thing that i want to say to him is that i want to encourage you to try to see this from her angle from her perspective of if she opens up and she gets hurt it’s very difficult to do the same thing again it’s like okay i’m going to put my hand on a stove is it on is it not on when i put my hand on the stove and then i get burned again so she says i’m not going near that again and then eventually it’s like okay i’m gonna give this another shot she puts her hand out there it gets burned again i hope that you can understand and start to see that this is a scary thing for her because opening up and risking to let you in it truly is it’s a risk because there is a possibility there’s a potential of getting hurt and in any relationship addiction or not in any relationship there’s a potential to get hurt that’s why it’s like it’s this double edged sword marriages and relationships are a double edged sword number one on one side it can be the greatest most amazing experience for us as human beings to fully be loved and accepted and seen and to feel like we matter that’s one of the most transcendent experiences that we can have as people because that speaks to how we are made and wired is for connection so when we get that it’s like oxygen to our soul the other side of that sword is as a result of how much these relationships mean then the possibility for completely being devastated and crushed is also there because the other person has so much influence and power to affect us and that’s not again like sometimes we talk about things i hear this word of codependence being thrown around i think that just comes from a misunderstanding of what that word is just as a quick sidebar because again people think like well maybe i shouldn’t rely on my partner maybe i should be more independent i think that’s just a faulty way of seeing how we’re made as people again with so much research attachment theory if anybody wants more information on that it’s it’s what we’re talking about in terms of how important connection is to somebody else and we’ve had decades of research to demonstrate the validity of the fact that we are made as human beings we’re social creatures so you can’t just say okay i’m going to live on this island and be independent emotionally i don’t need anybody else the reason why women feel betrayal is because we rely on and we lean on our partner and so when it when we find out that there’s something that was not true or there’s something that’s that they’re doing that’s causing pain that’s the reason why you feel pain is because there’s that sense of betrayal because of the bonds that we create in significant relationships so sometimes when people say codependency i just think that’s a it’s a it’s a flawed way of looking at it because really the person who developed and coined that term codependent it was never supposed to be in this context so there was i think it was back in the 70s melody pia she talks about this idea of codependence and she the reason why she developed that term was because in alcoholics anonymous you were to consider like a co alcoholic this was way back when right you’ve got the alcoholic and then the co alcoholic which just basically made it a problem for for the wife if oh you must be tolerating this you must be a part of this problem therefore you’re going to get this label of co alcoholic and it’s such an absurd thing and they’ve shied away from that which is good because it’s caused so much damage for people to think about things in those terms and the codependent label was used originally to describe the spouse of person who is dependent on drugs a drug addict a drug dependent therefore you’re a codependent and then it morphed into this thing of like Making it a problem for us to lean on our partner making it a problem for us to want connection and to be hurt when we don’t have it. So I think it’s just been so misconstrued. So I wanted to do a quick little sidebar, because it’s so important that we do have these connections, right? This is the whole basis of the, the path to healing in a relationship. Okay, so going back to this thread that we’re talking about, it’s important that he knows that this idea of her being able to open up and trust is scary, because it can cause so much pain. So I think having having some compassion and understanding about that is important. Now, the other thing that I would say is one of the things that makes that compassion and understanding difficult is how they are perceiving this situation. I’ve worked with so many men where they are doing the best that they can. And she still doesn’t believe what he’s saying. So for him, he gets frustrated, he gets, he feels discouraged. He feels demotivated, because he says, nothing that I’m doing is enough. This must mean that I’m not doing a good enough job, or else she would feel differently. This is the area that I want to be so clear about to challenge. And I want you to understand this husband’s as you’re listening, man, as you’re listening. Regardless of how much good work you’re doing, the pace will be what it is. So it doesn’t, that if she’s still feeling mistrustful or distrustful, and she doesn’t immediately open up in the wall doesn’t come down. That doesn’t mean you’re not doing the right things. That doesn’t mean you’re not doing a good job. Again, it’s important that you hear that there is a delay between your efforts and the influence or impact that they have on her. So you could be doing everything, quote, unquote, right, you could be doing everything that she might need in order to start rebuilding trust. But please understand that there is a delay between your efforts. And the result that you’re going to see. Another way to look at this is there’s this book called atomic habits. It’s fascinating, excellent book. He says that one of the reasons why people stop implementing habits are that one of the reasons why they don’t new healthy habits don’t take right away, and many people give them up is because of what we’re talking about right now there is a delay. And the analogy that he uses was, imagine having an ice cube and you put it on a table, let’s say you’re in on those big, commercial size, you know, like, if you go to the grocery store these massive freezers, let’s say you’re in a freezer, you put an ice cube on a table and the temperature in the freezer is 26 degrees. If you bump that up to 27 degrees, nothing is going to happen. If you bump it up to 2829, all the way to 31 degrees, nothing will happen yet there are changes being made. The air the temperature is increasing, it’s rising, but you’re not seeing the effect of it until you cross the threshold into 32. and beyond. The same thing is true. When it comes to rebuilding trust. It’s okay that there’s a delay, it’s okay for her to feel how she is feel however she feels, please know that that’s not an indication necessarily. And in most cases, if you’re doing the work, that’s not an indication of the fact that it’s not working, it is not an indication of the fact that you’re not doing a good enough job. Right, I hope that you can understand and hear that. So it’s okay for her to feel how she does and there will be a delay. But as you do the work as you bump it up from 2627 28 degrees, you will notice a difference. Now, sometimes the women will feel like Well, how do I know what I can start to really let my wall down. I can see he’s doing good work, I can see that he’s trying, I’m understanding more about addiction. I get more about him specifically and why he turns to it. I’m getting that, that all these things affect how he interacts. And I can see the changes that he’s making. So how can I know when I can bring my wall down? Or another question they’ll ask is, how do I know if he’s actually telling me the truth? And I think sometimes people wonder that legitimately. And I get that I think that’s a good question is how can I know if he’s telling the truth, the truth, the reality is that you can’t. In so many instances you can’t know verifiably that he’s telling the truth. That’s one of the things that can make this difficult, if you’re looking for those types of evidence, or facts or things that you can confirm, is that you can’t and you might say well, if I looked at so this is again, I’ll share this with clients that I work with. Sometimes people will say like husbands will say the mental say, I’m telling the truth. I did not talk to so and so. I never called her I never texted this person, or whatever. Let’s just say text At our web search or whatever this the details might be, he says, I did not do that. And she says, Well, how I can’t believe you. And he says, well, let’s pull up the phone records, I have nothing to hide. It doesn’t matter. Like, let’s go look. And then she looks at the phone records. And sure enough, the there was no phone call made. And he says, see, like, I’m telling you, this is this is me, demonstrating to you I’m trying to prove to you I didn’t call this person. And instead of her saying, Okay, you know what? I don’t see it on the phone records. Yeah, you must be right. Okay. I believe you know, what tends to happen more than that is she says, You’ve just gotten better at hiding it. You contacted her on another phone? How do I know you don’t have another phone? How do I know you didn’t meet up with her? How do I know that? Right? And you fill in the blank with any other concern or objection that she might have. And I get, understandably, that she’ll have these objections because she’s been hurt in the past. So her mind is our minds are wired for safety and protection. Our minds are not wired to make us happy. Happiness is our job. The mind is wired to scan for threats and scan for danger. So when she goes to that place of Yep, yeah, it’s not on the records. But that’s just her mind doing what it’s meant to do. So you really can’t verify most things. So then the question is, well, what do you do? The strongest predictor of whether or not things are good? Or if things are different is, is simply how do you feel? And I know that some of you when you hear that, you might think like, Okay, well, that sounds ridiculous, because sometimes I don’t even know how I feel. Sometimes I can’t trust my feelings. So I always share the story that I think is relevant here. Worked with a couple where they were doing excellent work. And she still had reservations, understandably. So again, this is normal. And he he just, he, he understood that it was okay and normal for her to feel those things. And he was just committed to doing the things that he needed to do. And surrendering the outcome or allowing the outcome, the outcome is inevitable, it will happen you will get there, trust will be rebuilt, when you do the right things are the things that build that trust, and then again, it gets to the point where she then can choose and can feel like it’s time for me to start to let my wall down, I can see that changes are happening. And so it was for them, they started to bring the wall down, they started to make tremendous progress together, they felt closer, they could feel a sense of connection that they hadn’t had. And that is the barometer that is the measuring stick that will allow you to know things are different, because I can feel it. And so once you start to feel connected with your partner, you’re gonna know what I’m talking about. You’re gonna feel a sense of openness. So what are some markers of that you’re going to feel a sense of openness, you’re going to feel a different this is again, so hard to sometimes describe this, there’s like a different energy in your interactions, there’s a different quality to how you feel it’s like there’s the compartmentalization, you’re going to start to notice that there’s openness, instead, there is integration, there is a sense of being present, there’s a sense of feeling close, there is you’re going to, you’re going to feel that that wall isn’t there. That’s how you’re going to know, if you are connecting and making progress together. Because you can’t fake connection, you can say the right things, but the energy just is different. And it won’t support that. That’s why sometimes people can feel like something is off, even though their partner might say no, we’re good, everything’s good, or I’m on the right track. But they can just feel or sense that’s just I don’t know, something feels off to me. And then it might come out that thing is something actually was off. Because again, I can feel that. And so with this particular couple, there was this the situation was such that he had an affair with somebody at work. And for the same reason it was a distraction. It was he didn’t know how to cope with this pain, and not an excuse. But she started understand this he they each started to understand the reason why and he took the steps. Again, the reason why it’s important to understand why it happens is so you can take steps to solve the core of the problem. We want to understand it so we can resolve it. So it doesn’t keep happening. So they started understand it. And he took the steps to resolve the pain, he started to open up to her, he started to let her in on an emotional level and talk about his fears and inadequacies and concerns and just let her in more fully. And by virtue of doing that the connection that he got resolved the core of the pain that he was in. So again, there was no there was no temptation or need for him to turn to anybody else or anything else to distract him from the pain because he was getting that resolved within his relationship, which is the whole premise of what we’re talking about in the podcast. We are building the relationship to be able to use it as a resource for not only our own in for like it because it creates such a level of fulfillment because of how we’re wired. But on an individual level we grow as people and so their situation was such where after that affair took place They set up these boundaries because they worked together. They set up some some guidelines or some boundaries that said, okay, in order for her to feel safe, she did not want him to have interactions with her that were anything beyond strictly professional, where if they had to talk or consult for a project that work, then they did so. But then it didn’t get to be some friendly conversation about hey, how’s everything going? And just talk as friends, she didn’t want that. And he’s like, that’s perfectly understandable, I can do that. That’s no problem. So then there was a day that he went to work. And the so what happened was, he went to work. And it was a weekend. And then right before he was leaving work, the the woman came to him and said, Hey, how you doing? What do you know, just what’s going on this weekend? in like, it wasn’t an inappropriate conversation. It was a harmless conversation. But it was something that crossed the line that they had both decided was the new line. So again, the content of the of the conversation was not inappropriate. But the conversation was inappropriate, because it across the line, you see what I mean, in that in that they did in that, that they had decide, they had decided what the line was, as a result of that it was a short conversation, just a few minutes. But he knew like I crossed the line. He comes home the instant he walks in the door. She asked the question, what happened? And he says, What do you mean? And she said, I know something happened, like what happened today. And so he’s like, and so instead of saying nothing, we’re good, everything’s fine. He did what he needed to do and said, you know, today earlier, so and so came to me, and she asked this question, we had a very short conversation. And I didn’t ask her any questions about what what she was doing this weekend, I answered her questions. And, and, you know, we spent some time talking. But that that’s, that’s what happened at work today. So I use this story, and again, like, not to go into the details of like what we did next. But it’s like, essentially, they were able to resolve like the short version of it, I guess some of the details, or the short version of this is that they were able to come back together, reinforce the understanding, have him own take ownership of that and repair. And as he did that, then that helped to repair the damage and recenter them with this renewed commitment of this is this is what we need to do in order for our relationship to thrive, we need to have this in place. And so they were back on the same place because they were able to resolve it, instead of that causing a fight and blew everything up into into them not speaking for a week, they resolved it by using the tools that we’ve talked about in session. But the reason why I tell this story, is because this is such a perfect way to describe what we’re saying with regard to how do you feel. Because if you feel like something is like you’re gonna know if something is off, if you feel like something is off. Now, I say that with a caveat. Sometimes, and when somebody is doing their work, a lot of times they can, something can feel off, but it doesn’t actually mean that they’re back in addiction. Something can feel off because on the way home, somebody cut them off and they’re upset, or they’re annoyed at somebody at work, or they just feel overwhelmed and stressed. Or they might be beating themselves up about something completely unrelated. or there might be a challenge about anything, right, there could be something can be off. But it doesn’t actually have to mean it has to do with addiction, something can just be off individually, you’re going to feel that as well. So the goal and the process is to be able to learn the tools to create connection. And to help both of you get comfortable and develop the muscle memory to be able to share and to be open and to connect and to be vulnerable and to build the relationship and to let each other in. So you have the relationship as a resource. So that when something does feel off, you are each able to go to each other and share to be able to recenter again, relationship is such an important way that we can, it’s one of the most powerful ways as human beings that we can recenter emotionally is by sharing and seeking support from somebody else. And so again, you’re gonna, this is where it’s going to be like this kind of process where you’re going to learn as you go. But the reality and the truth is that you can’t prove that something is wrong. But you can rely on these feelings based on the interactions that you have to tell does something feel off and the more you build the muscle memory to share, again the work the goal is to like these moments will come up, but bigger than these moments is developing the skills to be able to let each other end. And so once you do that the outcome is inevitable. You will feel a sense of connection you will feel then when something is off. And you’re going to start to notice and pay attention to and be aware of when things feel off in a very destructive way versus a stressed way or a had a bad day kind of a way. And the more you guys build up the muscle memory and have those tools to be able to communicate in those moments. That is what’s going to help you resolve and feel recenter, let’s say it’s a, I’m just a stress, let’s just say I’m really stressed out, it’s been a really stressful day, kind of a an off feeling. The goal is to be able to reconnect, to be able to come back together to let each other in, so that when you do that, you will then be able to feel that things recenter. This is very important. When things feel like they recenter it helps to bring that sense of emotional balance. So I guess I can’t emphasize enough the goal, the overarching goal, the work that we do largely is outside of these moments, because once you know how to handle these by sharing and communicating in an in an in an effective way, in a transparent way, that will then help you to feel like you can recenter just like it was for my client, after they had that conversation, they were able to come back together recenter and things felt fine again, because they were because he was able to own and, and recommit. And let her in on what happened. And that was what recenter them. So they got that feeling back of Hey, we’re good, because they were right. I want to make sure that that’s clear for you guys. Because that’s such an important piece to this, the last thing that I want to share is that. And so what I want to encourage you all to do is focus on building the relationship outside of these moments. So that when these moments do arise, you’ll know what to do. And focusing on learning how to connect, focusing on how to repair any damage that happens, being able to get on the same page and resolving issues between you two will create that sense of connection. So that when something happens when things feel off, you’re going to be able to feel that and know that you can either talk about it or know that things actually are off and they need to be resolved. So I hope that this episode has made sense in that it helps you to know this is how you can navigate those moments. And there’s nothing else that will give you a greater return than being able to build a sense of connection and knowing how to repair and really come back together. Because that will be your measuring stick for how do we feel? Are we okay? Can I let my wall down Can I start to trust, you will be able to feel that and slowly it’s brick by brick, it’s not a light switch, brick by brick, you’re able to safely let the wall down in proportion to the work that he’s doing. And the feeling that it creates, as you guys connect the last note that I’ll share. Sometimes people focus mostly when I say do the work people, before they kind of before I have a chance to explain this, like sometimes I’ll work with people after they’ve been doing this work for three years, four years, five years, 10 years they’ve been working for so long they’ve been trying for so long. So often, what I find is the thing that most people are missing is this emotional piece is the connection piece, they might be doing very good individual work, they might be going to, you know, doing the things that are beneficial for them individually, which is good, we need those things. But there can still be a lot of suspicion and a lack of trust, because trust is built based on connection. And we need to have the individual healthy behaviors and habits in place, we need to be working on those Yes. And the thing that’s gonna really cement that together is when you guys can come together and let each other in, that’s when you’re going to feel a sense of connection more than anything else. So once you do that, once the individual things are in place, and you’re starting to turn to each other, and he’s starting to open up more and be more vulnerable, that’s going to create a feeling of safety where she can start to bring that wall down brick by brick, the wall is up in proportion to how safe she feels. I want to say that, again, the wall is up in proportion to how safe she feels. And so if she doesn’t feel safe at all the wall is going to be up all the way. But through his efforts, through his ability to start to let her in, that’s going to create the sense of safety so she can bring the wall down safely and can feel like it’s okay to take another step forward. So I hope this has been helpful. I would encourage you guys to be focusing on that this week. Paying attention to ways that you can build the relationship start to let each other in so he can start to let her in. Which then in turn can create the safety for her to let him in, which will then help you guys come closer together and resolve any of these moments that come up because you’re gonna have a new sense of, you’re gonna have a new feeling to be able to fall back on to measure how are we doing? Okay, again, I hope that this was helpful. If so, I would love it. If you wouldn’t mind sending me some feedback. You can rate this review on the on the podcast it helps other people to find it and if you have any other questions or things you’d like me to cover in episodes you can shoot me an email at support at healing couples.org again super happy to have you guys with me and i hope that this is helpful for this week that you can focus on and start to know how you can navigate these difficult moments alright we’ll talk to you guys next week wait before you go i’m offering free access for my podcast listeners to a course i created so make sure you go to couples healing.org so you can get some tools to start the healing process individually and in your relationship for if you want even more support and you’d like to work with me directly you can contact me with the info that’s on that website as well i’m excited for you to make progress on your journey
